Hafez: For What? Ghazal 65

[Dara]

For the broken heart of Eric:

Ghazal 65

For What?
http://www.untiredwithloving.org/hafez_65.html
Divan: http://www.untiredwithloving.org/hafiz.html

Anything you do ask yourself, the way Hafez asked, FOR WHAT? Are you
sad? Ask for what reason I am sad? Something did not go your way then
ask for what reason it went wrong? According to Hafez the answer is
always only ONE.

For all the religion vs. Sufism please read the Ref [8] and THINK how
Hafez approached this issue.

--DARA The Eyeless Lion

PS. Anyone has another translation for this to compare with?

[huuumeee]

Post by Dara
Ghazal 65
PS. Anyone has another translation for this to compare with?

Here is an interpretive (as opposed to a literal) translation of the
Gazal:



More pleasant than all of creation is what?
Where is the Creator? Say: "The cause of our waiting for an answer is
what?"

Every pleasant moment that fate delivers, reckon it as not
Delay is to none. The reward for hard work is what?

Life hangs by a single hair: keep sense.
Be your own grief-devourer. Fate's grief is what?

The meaning of the water of life and paradise
Save for drinking and for enjoyment is what?

The one fixated on creation, and the one intoxicated by the Presence
of the Creator are both of one family
To whose glance shall we give our hearts to? Your choice is what?

Of the Creator's secrets, what is known by creation?
O pretender! Your contention with your Creator is what?

If to the Creator the flaws of his creation remain hidden
The meaning of the Omnipotent's pardon and mercy is what?

The Zahid desires the many-forms of creation; and Hafiz the cup of
love from the Creator
Let us see between these two contenders, the choice of the Beloved is
what?

[Dara]

Post by huuumeee
The meaning of the water of life and paradise
Save for drinking and for enjoyment is what?

"save for drinking" and neither my meandering is correct I do not know
what it really means but I guess symbolically they convey the same
meaning. TARF is the word that is used and it could mean to dissolve
which still not making sense.

INSHALLAH check this out more. Perhaps his meaning is closer to
whatever it was supposed to be than mine.

Post by huuumeee
The Zahid desires the many-forms of creation; and Hafiz the cup of
love from the Creator
Let us see between these two contenders, the choice of the Beloved is
what?

I think this last verse is the KEY to understand Hafez's mood at the
time. He was going between sheikhs each a different style and he is
questioning which one is better? or which one is the choice of Beloved
i.e. they are what they are since Beloved chose them. Or what is the
final choice of the Beloved as a judgement of comparison between the
two. I am not sure.

Thanx I will look at this more

--DARA

[huuumeee]

Post by Dara
I think this last verse is the KEY to understand Hafez's mood at the
time. He was going between sheikhs each a different style and he is
questioning which one is better? or which one is the choice of Beloved
i.e. they are what they are since Beloved chose them. Or what is the
final choice of the Beloved as a judgement of comparison between the
two. I am not sure.
Thanx I will look at this more
--DARA

One (of the several) "messages" contained in this Gazal is the notion
that we are in general preoccupied by the pleasures and pains of the
incidents of consciousness, that we lose sight of consciousness itself
as a source for investigation. There are people who believe that until
a Human being acquires a degree of volition over his/her
consciousness, s/he does not actually posses a Soul.

[Dara]

Post by huuumeee
One (of the several) "messages" contained in this Gazal is the notion
that we are in general preoccupied by the pleasures and pains of the
incidents of consciousness, that we lose sight of consciousness itself
as a source for investigation. There are people who believe that until
a Human being acquires a degree of volition over his/her
consciousness, s/he does not actually posses a Soul.

SO in the light of what you said re-reading Hafez what really matters
in our end is: "until a Human being acquires a degree of volition..."
not so much this Sheikh vs that Scholar or this book vs. that religion
or this -ism vs. that -ism. Because these are all external to us.
right?

--DARA

[huuumeee]

Post by Dara

Post by huuumeee
One (of the several) "messages" contained in this Gazal is the notion
that we are in general preoccupied by the pleasures and pains of the
incidents of consciousness, that we lose sight of consciousness itself
as a source for investigation. There are people who believe that until
a Human being acquires a degree of volition over his/her
consciousness, s/he does not actually posses a Soul.

SO in the light of what you said re-reading Hafez what really matters
in our end is: "until a Human being acquires a degree of volition..."
not so much this Sheikh vs that Scholar or this book vs. that religion
or this -ism vs. that -ism. Because these are all external to us.
right?
--DARA

Or to put it differently:

"Cherish[ing] every happy moment that comes your way
No awareness within anyone then for all these efforts
The end is for what?"

[Dara]

Post by huuumeee

Post by Dara
SO in the light of what you said re-reading Hafez what really matters
in our end is: "until a Human being acquires a degree of volition..."
not so much this Sheikh vs that Scholar or this book vs. that religion
or this -ism vs. that -ism. Because these are all external to us.
right?
--DARA

"Cherish[ing] every happy moment that comes your way
No awareness within anyone then for all these efforts
The end is for what?"

Huh? THAT WAS GOOD...

-DARA

[Obo Vajrin]

From: huuumeee<< One (of the several) "messages" contained in this Gazal is the
notion
that we are in general preoccupied by the pleasures and pains of the
incidents of consciousness, that we lose sight of consciousness itself
as a source for investigation. There are people who believe that until
a Human being acquires a degree of volition over his/her
consciousness, s/he does not actually posses a Soul.
Imo, the above is of primary importance in an approach to higher understanding.
This "volition over one's consciousness", is it perhaps akin to what some
folks here have been calling the "learning" part of "learning how to learn"?
The stuff of the second "learn" can be authoritative, that is, accurate by
means of scholarship or scientific experiment. Volition over one's
consciousness must be measured by other means. And if I have an inkling of
what is being talked about, this volition is not a will of force or stuborness,
but more like the effort to grasp a handfull of air.

Take Care, obo

[Dara]

Salaam Obo

I am not that smart to respond to your post. however my point was to
note the POINT at which the Hafez was in his Divine Voyage.

The point was marked/defined by several questions rather than answers.

--DARA

[Obo Vajrin]

From Dara<< I am not that smart to respond to your post. >>

Salaam Dara, it appears we have something in common after all. :-)

Thank you for responding.

Take Care, obo

[Dara]

Post by Obo Vajrin
From Dara<< I am not that smart to respond to your post. >>
Salaam Dara, it appears we have something in common after all. :-)
Thank you for responding.
Take Care, obo

The day we are nothing we are the same

Thanx for writing

--DARA

[huuumeee]

Post by Dara

Post by huuumeee
The meaning of the water of life and paradise
Save for drinking and for enjoyment is what?

"save for drinking" and neither my meandering is correct I do not know
what it really means but I guess symbolically they convey the same
meaning. TARF is the word that is used and it could mean to dissolve
which still not making sense.

One possibility:

The meaning of the water of life and paradise does not lie in the
drinking of the water or in the enjoyment of paradise but instead is
the embedded vivifying element that facilitates the drinking and the
enjoying.

[Dara]

Post by huuumeee

Post by Dara

Post by huuumeee
The meaning of the water of life and paradise
Save for drinking and for enjoyment is what?

"save for drinking" and neither my meandering is correct I do not know
what it really means but I guess symbolically they convey the same
meaning. TARF is the word that is used and it could mean to dissolve
which still not making sense.

The meaning of the water of life and paradise does not lie in the
drinking of the water or in the enjoyment of paradise but instead is
the embedded vivifying element that facilitates the drinking and the
enjoying.

Huh? Here is what I love you guys/gals... If you pronounce the word
TARF in the second verse as TORAF (same latters) it means: NEW & NOVEL
CREATIONS like the greenry around the banks of the brooks! Which
matches what you wrote above.

Totally off the chart the WATER OF LIFE (as in wet kisses) in Farsi
also means the MOUTH OF THE BELOVED. Or the speaking of the Beloved.

It also means the Love of Beloved that if you drink a sip from it you
will be eternal and indestructible.

--DARA

[esowteric]

Post by Dara

Post by huuumeee
The meaning of the water of life and paradise
Save for drinking and for enjoyment is what?

"save for drinking" and neither my meandering is correct I do not know
what it really means but I guess symbolically they convey the same
meaning. TARF is the word that is used and it could mean to dissolve
which still not making sense.

In this instance, "save for" is another way of saying "except for"
or "other than for".

Cheers,
Eric.